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	<title>Comments on: Good Photographers, Bad Writers</title>
	<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451</link>
	<description>Not a photo blog, but sometimes I play one on TV</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.12-alpha</generator>

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		<title>by: Fil Hunter</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-12305</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-12305</guid>
					<description>Much thanks for your useful thread here! Just to be picky, though, and a bit off topic, you &lt;strong&gt;can&lt;/strong&gt; get a picture in most dark closets if you expose long enough, because there is almost always a little bit of light in there.

One of the most interesting of Edward Weston's green pepper pictures involved wrapping the pepper in "opaque" black cloth, putting the camera lens through a hole in the cloth, sealing the gaps around the hole, and exposing for several days. After enough time, he got a picture whose most interesting aspect is the beautiful diffusion, despite a very sharp lens, caused by the slowly changing shape of the pepper!

&lt;span class='jfriedl'&gt;A note for readers not recognizing Fil's name: he's the principal author of the most-excellent &lt;a href='http://regex.info/blog/2007-10-31/618' rel="nofollow"&gt;Light &#8212; Science and Magic&lt;/a&gt;, the de facto textbook on photographic lighting. You can see some of the pepper pictures he mentions &lt;a href='http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=Edward%20Weston%20green%20pepper' rel="nofollow"&gt;at Yahoo! Image Search&lt;/a&gt; &#8212;Jeffrey&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much thanks for your useful thread here! Just to be picky, though, and a bit off topic, you <strong>can</strong> get a picture in most dark closets if you expose long enough, because there is almost always a little bit of light in there.</p>
<p>One of the most interesting of Edward Weston&#8217;s green pepper pictures involved wrapping the pepper in &#8220;opaque&#8221; black cloth, putting the camera lens through a hole in the cloth, sealing the gaps around the hole, and exposing for several days. After enough time, he got a picture whose most interesting aspect is the beautiful diffusion, despite a very sharp lens, caused by the slowly changing shape of the pepper!</p>
<p><span class='jfriedl'>A note for readers not recognizing Fil&#8217;s name: he&#8217;s the principal author of the most-excellent <a href='http://regex.info/blog/2007-10-31/618' rel="nofollow">Light &mdash; Science and Magic</a>, the de facto textbook on photographic lighting. You can see some of the pepper pictures he mentions <a href='http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=Edward%20Weston%20green%20pepper' rel="nofollow">at Yahoo! Image Search</a> &mdash;Jeffrey</span>
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		<title>by: Ken Cameron</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-11912</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 04:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-11912</guid>
					<description>The passages you quote from Mr Briot's book are indeed awful, but for me they are examples of poor thinking rather than poor writing. The thoughts, though beyond banal, are not ill expressed. There is no ambiguity, obscurity, prolixity or other grave fault in the writing as such. You could say that the first sentence you quote is platitudinous, which suggests faults in both writing and thinking, but I would still maintain that the thinking is worse than the writing.

 I realise that putting it like that oversimplifies the relationship between writing and thinking because they tend, in practice, to stand  or fall together.  Doing either of them well requires  attention, doing either of them badly manifests inattention, and people who are capable or incapable of attention tend to be globally so. But there are exceptions which prove that rule - books which are hard going but worth the effort. Responsible publishers hire skilled editors to reduce that effort.

 Coming back to Mr  Briot,  there are people who think better than they write, and people who write better than they think. On the evidence of the passages quoted, I would put Mr Briot in the last group, at least when he is writing about history and culture rather than landscape photography.  There are also people who can think, and write, better about some things than others.  Mr Briot may also be in this group. I have read an essay by  him on the Luminous Landscape web site that is interesting and not badly written.

Btw, many thanks for the zenfolio lightroom plugin (what brought me to your  site in the first place).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The passages you quote from Mr Briot&#8217;s book are indeed awful, but for me they are examples of poor thinking rather than poor writing. The thoughts, though beyond banal, are not ill expressed. There is no ambiguity, obscurity, prolixity or other grave fault in the writing as such. You could say that the first sentence you quote is platitudinous, which suggests faults in both writing and thinking, but I would still maintain that the thinking is worse than the writing.</p>
<p> I realise that putting it like that oversimplifies the relationship between writing and thinking because they tend, in practice, to stand  or fall together.  Doing either of them well requires  attention, doing either of them badly manifests inattention, and people who are capable or incapable of attention tend to be globally so. But there are exceptions which prove that rule - books which are hard going but worth the effort. Responsible publishers hire skilled editors to reduce that effort.</p>
<p> Coming back to Mr  Briot,  there are people who think better than they write, and people who write better than they think. On the evidence of the passages quoted, I would put Mr Briot in the last group, at least when he is writing about history and culture rather than landscape photography.  There are also people who can think, and write, better about some things than others.  Mr Briot may also be in this group. I have read an essay by  him on the Luminous Landscape web site that is interesting and not badly written.</p>
<p>Btw, many thanks for the zenfolio lightroom plugin (what brought me to your  site in the first place).
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Sroka</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-9885</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-9885</guid>
					<description>Perhaps one of the only well written books  I have read on art is Art and Fear by Ted Orland (master photographer) and David Bayles. It is lucid, informative, and though-provoking. Most other books aren't worth the time to read. Especially bad are books on the business of being an artist, which are usually filled with fluff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps one of the only well written books  I have read on art is Art and Fear by Ted Orland (master photographer) and David Bayles. It is lucid, informative, and though-provoking. Most other books aren&#8217;t worth the time to read. Especially bad are books on the business of being an artist, which are usually filled with fluff.
</p>
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		<title>by: Vetle Woxholt</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4194</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 17:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4194</guid>
					<description>I couldn't agree more.  Thanks for bringing up this issue.  Not having English as my native language I struggle even more with content when it’s not well presented.  Most books I read are in fact English language versions (including Bill Brysons), and I really appreciate when a book is well written.  

Alan Briot is an excellent photographer, his pictures and technique outstanding, but the best outcome I've had so far from his book is that I'm falling asleep within a minute.  As a sleeping pill I can give his book my full credit.  But, as I understand, Alan Briot does not have English as his native language, and that often makes it much more challenging to explore the diversity of a language during writing.  So, it might not be truly fair to pick monsieur Briot as a scapegoat here.  He should at least get some credit for trying to get his message out, and I will read his book through – one minute at the time.  I’m actually getting more upset when reading lousy texts by native English writers.

However, to copy Bill Bryson’s laidback style when writing a book on a photographic theme could be a bit challenging, I believe.  I wouldn't expect to burst out into hilarious laughter when studying color management or sharpening.  I guess such matters fall almost into the same category as regular expressions regarding how funny they can be... .  Teaching how to practice photographical techniques in the field, however, could have some potential for a good laugh.  

I'm currently waiting for Scott Kelby's book on Lightroom (ordered through Yawnazon April 8th, and still not shipped).  As I understand from his blog, there have been some critiques regarding his weird sense of humor, apparently only present in the first chapters (according to Kelby himself).  I just can't wait to see what this fuzz is all about.  Some people, apparently, are just too serious about life's somewhat less important matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more.  Thanks for bringing up this issue.  Not having English as my native language I struggle even more with content when it’s not well presented.  Most books I read are in fact English language versions (including Bill Brysons), and I really appreciate when a book is well written.  </p>
<p>Alan Briot is an excellent photographer, his pictures and technique outstanding, but the best outcome I&#8217;ve had so far from his book is that I&#8217;m falling asleep within a minute.  As a sleeping pill I can give his book my full credit.  But, as I understand, Alan Briot does not have English as his native language, and that often makes it much more challenging to explore the diversity of a language during writing.  So, it might not be truly fair to pick monsieur Briot as a scapegoat here.  He should at least get some credit for trying to get his message out, and I will read his book through – one minute at the time.  I’m actually getting more upset when reading lousy texts by native English writers.</p>
<p>However, to copy Bill Bryson’s laidback style when writing a book on a photographic theme could be a bit challenging, I believe.  I wouldn&#8217;t expect to burst out into hilarious laughter when studying color management or sharpening.  I guess such matters fall almost into the same category as regular expressions regarding how funny they can be&#8230; .  Teaching how to practice photographical techniques in the field, however, could have some potential for a good laugh.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m currently waiting for Scott Kelby&#8217;s book on Lightroom (ordered through Yawnazon April 8th, and still not shipped).  As I understand from his blog, there have been some critiques regarding his weird sense of humor, apparently only present in the first chapters (according to Kelby himself).  I just can&#8217;t wait to see what this fuzz is all about.  Some people, apparently, are just too serious about life&#8217;s somewhat less important matters.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nils</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4189</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 23:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4189</guid>
					<description>I used to hire and train foreign English teachers in Osaka, and that sentence about light playing a great role reminded me of the time a resume came across my desk with this gem: "In this modern world, I strongly feel that communication is important."

&lt;span class='jfriedl'&gt;It's a good point.... communication wasn't nearly as important when we were all primordial ooze. (Rolls eyes...) &#8212;Jeffrey&lt;/span&gt;

No spelling errors, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to hire and train foreign English teachers in Osaka, and that sentence about light playing a great role reminded me of the time a resume came across my desk with this gem: &#8220;In this modern world, I strongly feel that communication is important.&#8221;</p>
<p><span class='jfriedl'>It&#8217;s a good point&#8230;. communication wasn&#8217;t nearly as important when we were all primordial ooze. (Rolls eyes&#8230;) &mdash;Jeffrey</span></p>
<p>No spelling errors, though.
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		<title>by: Peter</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4185</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 15:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4185</guid>
					<description>'no one likes to be told that they’re writing isn’t good' - well, their writing, anyway ;o)

&lt;span class='jfriedl'&gt;Ouch, unthinking grammar mistakes like that are the most embarrassing type, so I fixed it so no one will ever know I wrote it. :-)
I have a tendency toward those kinds of mistakes when adding something at the very end of a project. After I'd submitted the final copy for my first book and was exhausted, the publisher asked for one small addition, so I added a sentence. Two months later when the book was finally in print, I handed a copy to &lt;a href='http://www.unixwiz.net/blog/' rel="nofollow"&gt;my brother&lt;/a&gt; and within five minutes of having it in his hands, he found an its/it's mistake. I was mortified. It was in that last sentence inserted. &#8212;Jeffrey&lt;/span&gt;

I guess it's pretty hard for most people to concentrate on getting the message across, whilst *at the same time* concentrating on avoiding the pitfalls of the English language. That doesn't excuse the sort of nonsense you've quoted above, which is in a different class; the editors must take a good deal of blame, too. I'm just glad I've not laid out hard-earned cash to buy the books you mention! The Briot one could take prizes, so I hate to imagine what the Peterson one is like.

Peter

&lt;span class='jfriedl'&gt;The kind of "good" I mean in "good writing" is more than just grammar and spelling (that's "good proofreading" and important, but not so much as good writing, but both are very important to a good book). Good writing is knowing how to break down and present, putting yourself in your reader's shoes, then working from the big picture down to the individual sentences. When working on my book, sometimes the prose just flows, but more often I have to hack at it over and over and over. Often, I'm left with a lingering feeling of "something's not quite right," and if so, I leave it and come back to fix it later, because if the tiny voice in my own head notices a problem, it'll be screaming out to the reader who is not as blindly enamored with my writing as I am. :-)  &#8212;Jeffrey&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;no one likes to be told that they’re writing isn’t good&#8217; - well, their writing, anyway ;o)</p>
<p><span class='jfriedl'>Ouch, unthinking grammar mistakes like that are the most embarrassing type, so I fixed it so no one will ever know I wrote it. <img src='http://regex.info/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I have a tendency toward those kinds of mistakes when adding something at the very end of a project. After I&#8217;d submitted the final copy for my first book and was exhausted, the publisher asked for one small addition, so I added a sentence. Two months later when the book was finally in print, I handed a copy to <a href='http://www.unixwiz.net/blog/' rel="nofollow">my brother</a> and within five minutes of having it in his hands, he found an its/it&#8217;s mistake. I was mortified. It was in that last sentence inserted. &mdash;Jeffrey</span></p>
<p>I guess it&#8217;s pretty hard for most people to concentrate on getting the message across, whilst *at the same time* concentrating on avoiding the pitfalls of the English language. That doesn&#8217;t excuse the sort of nonsense you&#8217;ve quoted above, which is in a different class; the editors must take a good deal of blame, too. I&#8217;m just glad I&#8217;ve not laid out hard-earned cash to buy the books you mention! The Briot one could take prizes, so I hate to imagine what the Peterson one is like.</p>
<p>Peter</p>
<p><span class='jfriedl'>The kind of &#8220;good&#8221; I mean in &#8220;good writing&#8221; is more than just grammar and spelling (that&#8217;s &#8220;good proofreading&#8221; and important, but not so much as good writing, but both are very important to a good book). Good writing is knowing how to break down and present, putting yourself in your reader&#8217;s shoes, then working from the big picture down to the individual sentences. When working on my book, sometimes the prose just flows, but more often I have to hack at it over and over and over. Often, I&#8217;m left with a lingering feeling of &#8220;something&#8217;s not quite right,&#8221; and if so, I leave it and come back to fix it later, because if the tiny voice in my own head notices a problem, it&#8217;ll be screaming out to the reader who is not as blindly enamored with my writing as I am. <img src='http://regex.info/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   &mdash;Jeffrey</span>
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		<title>by: Mike B.</title>
		<link>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4184</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://regex.info/blog/2007-05-11/451#comment-4184</guid>
					<description>Can't tell you how much I share your sentiments.  There seems to be an inverse relationship between the technical knowledge or artistic talent of the author, and his/her ability to convey meaningful information with the written word.   Much to my chagrin this has been exceptionally true in the plethora of books on digital photography and digital post processing.  Do you suppose the authors ego gets in the way of collaborative efforts?

Mike.

&lt;span class='jfriedl'&gt;Of course egos are a part of it... no one likes to be told that their writing isn't good any more than someone proud of a photograph likes being told that it's not great.  Writing a book is not usually very rewarding from a financial point of view, so there's little financial incentive for a good photographer to take time away from their day job to write, and little financial incentive for a publisher to spend the money on a good writer to pair up with the photographer. That's my haven't-really-thought-about-it-much guess. &#8212;Jeffrey&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t tell you how much I share your sentiments.  There seems to be an inverse relationship between the technical knowledge or artistic talent of the author, and his/her ability to convey meaningful information with the written word.   Much to my chagrin this has been exceptionally true in the plethora of books on digital photography and digital post processing.  Do you suppose the authors ego gets in the way of collaborative efforts?</p>
<p>Mike.</p>
<p><span class='jfriedl'>Of course egos are a part of it&#8230; no one likes to be told that their writing isn&#8217;t good any more than someone proud of a photograph likes being told that it&#8217;s not great.  Writing a book is not usually very rewarding from a financial point of view, so there&#8217;s little financial incentive for a good photographer to take time away from their day job to write, and little financial incentive for a publisher to spend the money on a good writer to pair up with the photographer. That&#8217;s my haven&#8217;t-really-thought-about-it-much guess. &mdash;Jeffrey</span>
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